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The Caesar's futures sheet for next year's NBA says that they won't take bets on the Celtics, and if the Celtics win the title, they will pay off on the team they beat in the finals. What's the connection between Caesar's and the Celtics, and why isn't the 'ban' on all NBA games, in the same way that you can't make any NHL bets at Silverton?
Boz
The Caesar's futures sheet for next year's NBA says that they won't take bets on the Celtics, and if the Celtics win the title, they will pay off on the team they beat in the finals. What's the connection between Caesar's and the Celtics, and why isn't the 'ban' on all NBA games, in the same way that you can't make any NHL bets at Silverton?
It has been that way for years as their parent company also owns part of the Celtics, therefore they cannot take bets on them.
DrawingDead
^That's right. A private equity firm named TPG Capital owns a significant portion of Caesars Entertainment, along with another PE firm named Apollo, following the leveraged buy-out they jointly engineered of what used to be Harrah's Entertainment about 7 or 8 years ago. TPG also owns a significant share of the Celtics, hence they can't book bets on the green guys who bounce orange balls in their underwear. (I did a fair bit of research into this company's financials several years ago.) I've also informally heard some locals say that Gary Loveman (CEO of Caesars) personally owns a piece of them (he lives in Boston) but I'm not sure if that's also true or just the product of some folks' confusion over the complicated ownership structure of this company. You also can't bet them at the Palms for the same reason. The Maloof brothers, who built & owned Palms, got into financial trouble & TPG snapped up much of the defaulted bonds to become majority owner of it. Or, just go with the short version of all that: what he said. You'll get a better price (less 'vig' built into the line) at LVH & Wynn than you ever would've from CZR properties anyways. Currently I see they are on the board at 65/1 for the 2015 NBA championship at Wynn, and your ticket would probably pay a little better than that from LVH. If Caesars could hang a line on them I think it would likely be closer to a 50/1 payout with the larger juice for the house in their futures. EDIT: I just now doublechecked what I wrote above, and TPG does NOT have a 'majority' ownership interest in Palms. They have 49%.
'I'm against stuff like crack and math' --AxelWold
Lemieux66
^That's right. A private equity firm named TPG Capital owns a significant portion of Caesars Entertainment, along with another PE firm named Apollo, following the leveraged buy-out they jointly engineered of what used to be Harrah's Entertainment about 7 or 8 years ago. TPG also owns a significant share of the Celtics, hence they can't book bets on the green guys who bounce orange balls in their underwear. (I did a fair bit of research into this company's financials several years ago.) I've also informally heard some locals say that Gary Loveman (CEO of Caesars) personally owns a piece of them (he lives in Boston) but I'm not sure if that's also true or just the product of some folks' confusion over the complicated ownership structure of this company. You also can't bet them at the Palms for the same reason. The Maloof brothers, who built & owned Palms, got into financial trouble & TPG snapped up much of the defaulted bonds to become majority owner of it. Or, just go with the short version of all that: what he said. You'll get a better price (less 'vig' built into the line) at LVH & Wynn than you ever would've from CZR properties anyways. Currently I see they are on the board at 65/1 for the 2015 NBA championship at Wynn, and your ticket would probably pay a little better than that from LVH. If Caesars could hang a line on them I think it would likely be closer to a 50/1 payout with the larger juice for the house in their futures.
Did the Palms have this same issue when the Maloofs owned the Sacramento Kings?
10 eyes for an eye. 10 teeth for a tooth. 10 bucks for a buck?! Hit the bad guys where it hurts the most: the face and the wallet.
DrawingDead
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Did the Palms have this same issue when the Maloofs owned the Sacramento Kings?
Yes.
'I'm against stuff like crack and math' --AxelWold
teddys
FWIW, Ed Roski owns the Silverton (AHigh's favorite casino) and a piece of the Kings and the Lakers as well, so they don't take NHL or NBA bets I believe.
'Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe.' -Rig Veda 10.34.4
DrawingDead
FWIW, Ed Roski owns the Silverton (AHigh's favorite casino) and a piece of the Kings and the Lakers as well, so they don't take NHL or NBA bets I believe.
Any NHL or NBA? On any team at all? Their website seems to indicate they've brought in Cantor ('Book in a Box' - 'WalBook' - 'Booker King' - 'McBook' - 'Taco Book') instead of running their own. But I dunno, Silverton is one of the few I've never been in; I know people who like it and I keep meaning to stop in, but never have. In case you're not familiar with them, Cantor runs multiple books at multiple LV area properties, basically contracting for the space, as well as having a mobile wagering app - but I don't know how their gaming license meshes with the host site's gaming license & any property-specific restrictions that may exist. Maybe farming it out to Cantor is new for them? Come to think of it, Palms is a Cantor book now, and I've never asked whether that has now got them out of the restrictions that came with TPG's ownership interest. I have an account there, but I never do anything with NBA wagers.
'I'm against stuff like crack and math' --AxelWold
JSTAT
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The Caesar's futures sheet for next year's NBA says that they won't take bets on the Celtics, and if the Celtics win the title, they will pay off on the team they beat in the finals. What's the connection between Caesar's and the Celtics, and why isn't the 'ban' on all NBA games, in the same way that you can't make any NHL bets at Silverton?
Caesars Entertainment's CEO Gary Loveman owns a minority stake of the Boston Celtics. Since Loveman is involved with the day-to-day operations of CZR, all Celtics bets are off at Caesars properties. Curiously, Josh Harris, founder of Apollo Management and co-owner of Caesars with TPG Capital, is principle owner of the Philadelphia 76ers. Also, Cleveland Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert is a Caesars major investor. Since Harris and Gilbert are not involved with Caesars day-to-day as Loveman is, their teams can be wagered at sports books within the Empire.
Casino reporter, enjoys blackjack/baccarat card counting, Bay Area poker pro, JSTAT@Casino_Examiner on Twitter
DrawingDead
Caesars Entertainment's CEO Gary Loveman owns a minority stake of the Boston Celtics. Since Loveman is involved with the day-to-day operations of CZR, all Celtics bets are off at Caesars properties. Curiously, Josh Harris, founder of Apollo Management and co-owner of Caesars with TPG Capital, is principle owner of the Philadelphia 76ers. Also, Cleveland Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert is a Caesars major investor. Since Harris and Gilbert are not involved with Caesars day-to-day as Loveman is, their teams can be wagered at sports books within the Empire.
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This makes more sense to me than what I thought I understood about it.
'I'm against stuff like crack and math' --AxelWold
ThatDonGuy
Any NHL or NBA? On any team at all?
When I was there last year, the policy was, no NHL bets whatsoever, but I don't remember seeing anything similar concerning the NBA. (You would think it would be the other way around, at least back then, considering David Stern's anti-gambling stand; remember, he used this 'veto power' as NBA commissioner to prevent any Nevada casinos from taking bets on the NBA All-Star Game the year it was held in Vegas (and not only that, but he prevented bets on things like the 3-point shooting contest as well).)
BeauH
Can anyone tell me how many tier credits u earn on sports and ponies
DrawingDead
Parimutual race wagers are 30 Tier Credits per $100 in the Caesars Total Rewards system, and the Reward Credits are 100 per $100. There are some bonus RCs for exceeding a certain threshold in a day. Any 'house-banked' race related wagers that are not part of the tracks' parimutual pools, such as in-house props & futures, would be the same as sports. Sports wagers are a very small fraction that is essentially zero. Forget about it. Keep records and check your balance the next day, because credit for wagers from the book are entered into the system manually overnight by people in the pit, some of whom may not know what they are doing or care, and they have been known to occasionally (about 10% of the time) enter them wrong such as coding parimutual race wagers the same as sports, making it worthless. If that should happen, the manager of the book should be able to correct it if you bring it to their attention.
'I'm against stuff like crack and math' --AxelWold
Boz
Parimutual race wagers are 30 Tier Credits per $100 in the Caesars Total Rewards system, and the Reward Credits are 100 per $100. There are some bonus RCs for exceeding a certain threshold in a day. Any 'house-banked' race related wagers that are not part of the tracks' parimutual pools, such as in-house props & futures, would be the same as sports. Sports wagers are a very small fraction that is essentially zero. Forget about it. Keep records and check your balance the next day, because credit for wagers from the book are entered into the system manually overnight by people in the pit, some of whom may not know what they are doing or care, and they have been known to occasionally (about 10% of the time) enter them wrong such as coding parimutual race wagers the same as sports, making it worthless. If that should happen, the manager of the book should be able to correct it if you bring it to their attention.
Are you saying they pay more on Race Bets than Slots? Not to argue, but that seems strange. But then some of these tracks has really increased the holds.
DRich
Are you saying they pay more on Race Bets than Slots? Not to argue, but that seems strange. But then some of these tracks has really increased the holds.
That would not surprise me. Most racetracks hold back 15%-20% of the pool.
Living longer does not always infer +EV
DrawingDead
Are you saying they pay more on Race Bets than Slots?
I have no idea what the rate would be on slots. It is against my religion (called the Holy Church of DrawingDead's Money) to play games that involve betting against a casino; I'd rather play games that involve betting against an impulsive, drunk, lazy, dense, superstitious gambling degenerate, with the 'house' only acting as a neutral stakeholder with no skin in the game, such as poker or horse racing. But it is and most definitely has been for a long time 30 Total Rewards system Tier Credits per $100 race wager through books at the Caesars properties. At most other books, it is zero tier credits but higher reward/comp type credits, usually ranging from a low end of 2% up to a maximum of 5% of handle rebated in the form of comp points, with around 2.5% or 3% being most common. Caesars is quite low at an effective rate of 1% of handle on the Reward Credits, but is one of only two (along with Station Casinos) that has their books integrated into their system for giving tier credit status points. $50,000 in pari-mutual race wagers gets to Diamond in the Caesars system.
'I'm against stuff like crack and math' --AxelWold
Boz
Slots are $5 in for a Tier Credit or 20 for $100.
DrawingDead
Slots are $5 in for a Tier Credit or 20 for $100.
Then pari-mutual wagers award more Tier Credits per dollar of 'coin-in' or 'handle' than slots at Caesars. The track takeout rate varies a lot by wager type as well as venue/jurisdiction/location of the track, being highest for lottery ticket style low-probability exotic wagers favored by people trying to become a onenickelmiracle, such as the pick-6. They do not make distinctions among different wager types with different takeout rates in awarding credits/comps. Those exotics are popular with some and do take a lot of action at rates that can greatly exceed 20% for some of them, as people chasing lottery ticket dreams are not very price sensitive or aware. An example of takeout for plain straight non-exotic wagers is 15.43% for win, place, and show at California tracks. There are ways of wagering to effectively reduce that. When wagers are made off-track, such as at a Las Vegas racebook, the takeout is contractually split between the track and the venue where the wager originated, and the site where the wager originated (in this case a casino's book) gets the larger share in those contracts.
'I'm against stuff like crack and math' --AxelWold